Army v McCarthy (partial transcript w/ video)Edit
In order that we may all be quite clear as to just why this hearing has come about, it is necessary for me to refer at the outset to Pvt. G. David Schine, a former consultant of this committee. David Schine was eligible for the draft. Efforts were made by the chairman of this committee, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, and the subcommittee’s chief counsel, Mr. Roy M. Cohn, to secure a commission for him. Mr. Schine was not qualified, and he was not commissioned. Selective service then drafted him. Subsequent efforts were made to seek preferential treatment for him after he was inducted.
Before getting into the Schine story I want to make two general comments.
First, it is my responsibility to speak for the Army. The Army is about a million and a half men and women, in posts across this country and around the world, on active duty and in the National Guard and Organized Reserves, plus hundreds of thousands of loyal and faithful civil servants.
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman, a point of order.
Senator MUNDT. Senator McCarthy has a point of order.
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Stevens is not speaking for the Army. He is speaking for Mr. Stevens, for Mr. Adams, and Mr. Hensel. The committee did not make the Army a party to this controversy, and I think it is highly improper to try to make the Army a party. Mr. Stevens can only speak for himself. . . .
All we were investigating has been some Communists in the Army, a very small percentage, I would say much less than 1 percent. And when the Secretary says that, in effect “I am speaking for the Army,” he is putting the 99.9 percent of good, honorable, loyal men in the Army into the position of trying to oppose the exposure of Communists in the Army.
I think it should be made clear at the outset, so we need not waste time on it, hour after hour, that Mr. Stevens is speaking for Mr. St
evens and those who are speaking through him; when Mr. Adams speaks, he is speaking for Mr. Adams and those who are speaking through him, and likewise Mr. Hensel.
I may say I resent very, very much this attempt to connect the great American Army with this attempt to sabotage the efforts of this committee’s investigation into communism. . .
Mr. ADAMS. About that time these two friends left, and because I wanted Senator McCarthy to restate before Mr. Cohn what he had told me on the courthouse steps, I said, “Let’s talk about Schine.”
That started a chain of events, an experience similar to none which I have had in my life.
Mr. Cohn became extremely agitated, became extremely abusive. He cursed me and then Senator McCarthy. The abuse went in waves. He would be very abusive and then it would kind of abate and things would be friendly for a few moments. Everybody would eat a little bit more, and then it would start in again. It just kept on.
I was trying to catch a 1:30 train, but Mr. Cohn was so violent by then that I felt I had better not do it and leave him that angry with me and that angry with Senator McCarthy because of a remark I had made. So I stayed and missed my 1:30 train. I thought surely I would be able to get out of there by 2:30. The luncheon concluded.
Mr. JENKINS. You say you were afraid to leave Senator McCarthy alone there with him? Mr. Adams, what did he say? You say he was very abusive.
Mr. ADAMS. He was extremely abusive.
Mr. JENKINS. Was or not any obscene language used?
Mr. ADAMS. Ye
Mr. JENKINS. Just omit that and tell what he did say which constituted abuse, in your opinion.
Mr. ADAMS. I have stated before, sir, the tone of voice has as much to do with abuse as words. I do not remember the phrases, I do not remember the sentences, but I do remember the violence.
Mr. JENKINS. Do you remember the subject?
Mr. ADAMS. The subject was Schine. The subject was the fact—the thing that Cohn was angry about, the thing that he was so violent about, was the fact that, (1), the Army was not agreeing to an assignment for Schine and, (2), that Senator McCarthy was not supporting his staff in its efforts to get Schine assigned to New York. So his abuse was directed partly to me and partly to Senator McCarthy.
As I say, it kind of came in waves. There would be a period of extreme abuse, and then there would be a period where it would get almost back to normal, and ice cream would be ordered, and then about halfway through that a little more of the same. I missed the 2:30 train, also.
This violence continued. It was a remarkable thing. At first Senator McCarthy seemed to be trying to conciliate. He seemed to be trying to conciliate Cohn and not to state anything contrary to what he had stated to me in the morning. But then he more or less lapsed into silence. . . .
So I went down to room 101. Mr. Cohn was there and Mr. Carr was there. As I remember, we lunched together in the Senate cafeteria, and everything was peaceful. When we returned to room 101, toward the latter part of the conversation I asked Cohn—I knew that 90 percent of all inductees ultimately face overseas duty and I knew that one day we were going to face that problem with Mr. Cohn as to Schine.
So I thought I would lay a little groundwork for future trouble I guess. I asked him what would happen if Schine got overseas duty.
Mr. JENKINS. You mean you were breaking the news gently, Mr. Adams?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; that is right. I asked him what would happen if Schine got overseas duty. He responded with vigor and force, “Stevens is through as Secretary of the Army.”
I said, “Oh, Roy,” something to this effect, “Oh, Roy, don’t say that. Come on. Really, what is going to happen if Schine gets overseas duty?”
He responded with even more force, “We will wreck the Army.”
Then he said, “The first thing we are going to do is get General Ryan for the way he has treated Dave at Fort Dix. Dave gets through at Fort Dix tomorrow or this week, and as soon as he is gone we are going to get General Ryan
for the obscene way in which he has permitted Schine to be treated up there.”
He said, “We are not going to do it ourselves. We have another committee of the Congress interested in it.”
Then he said, “I wouldn’t put it past you to do this. We will start investigations. We have enough stuff on the Army to keep investigations going indefinitely, and if anything like such-and-such doublecross occurs, that is what we will do.”
This remark was not to be taken lightly in the context in which it was given to me. . .Mr. JENKINS. You will recall, Mr. Cohn, that he testified that you said that if Schine went overseas, Stevens was through as Secretary of the Army?
Mr. COHN. I heard him say that, sir.
Mr. JENKINS. Did you or not?
Mr. COHN. No, sir.
Mr. JENKINS. Did you say anything like that, Mr. Cohn?
Mr. COHN. No, sir, and my recollection is that I did not. I have talked to Mr. Carr who was sitting there the whole time, and he says I did not. . . .
Mr. JENKINS. All right, now you are saying you did not say it, Mr. Cohn?
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir. I am saying I am sure I did not make that statement, and I am sure that Mr. Adams and anybody else with any sense, and Mr. Adams has a lot of sense, could ever believe that I was threatening to wreck the Army or that I could wreck the Army. I say, sir, that the statement is ridiculous.
Mr. JENKINS. I am talk
ing about Stevens being through as Secretary of the Army.
Mr. COHN. That is equally ridiculous, sir.
Mr. JENKINS. And untrue?
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir, equally ridiculous and untrue, I could not cause the President of the United States to remove Stevens as Secretary of the Army. . . .
Mr. WELCH. Mr. Cohn, what is the exact number of Communists or subversives that are loose today in these defense plants?
Mr. COHN. The exact number that is loose, sir?
Mr. WELCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. COHN. I don’t know.
Mr. WELCH. Roughly how many?
Mr. COHN. I can only tell you, sir, what we know about it.
Mr. WELCH. That is 130, is that right?
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir. I am going to try to particularize for you, if I can.
Mr. WELCH. I am in a hurry. I don’t want the sun to go down while they are still in there, if we can get them out.
Mr. COHN. I am afraid we won’t be able to work that fast, sir.
Mr. WELCH. I have a suggestion about it, sir. How many are there?
Mr. COHN. I believe the figure is approximately 130.
Mr. WELCH. Approximately one-two-three?
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir. Thos
e are people, Mr. Welch—
Mr. WELCH. I don’t care. You told us who they are. In how many plants are they?
Mr. COHN. How many plants?
Mr. WELCH. How many plants.
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir; just I minute, sir. I see 16 offhand, sir.
Mr. WELCH. Sixteen plants?
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. WELCH. Where are they, sir?
Mr. COHN. Senator McCarthy—
Mr. WELCH. Reel off the cities.
Mr. COHN. Would you stop me if I am going too far?
Mr. WELCH. You can’t go too far revealing Communists, Mr. Cohn. Reel off the cities for us.
Mr. COHN. Schenectady, N.Y.; Syracuse, N.Y.; Rome, N.Y.; Quincy, Mass.; Fitchburg, Mass.; Buffalo, N.Y.; Dunkirk, N.Y.; another at Buffalo, N.Y.; Cambridge, Mass.; New Bedford, Mass.; Boston, Mass.; Quincy, Mass.; Lynn, Mass.; Pittsfield Mass.; Boston, Mass.
Mr. WELCH. Mr. Cohn, you not only frighten me, you make me ashamed when there are so many in Massachusetts. [Laughter.] This is not a laughing matter, believe me. Are you alarmed at that situation, Mr. Cohn?
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. WELCH. Nothing could be more alarming, could it?
Mr. COHN. It certainly is a very alarming thing.
Mr. WELCH. Will you not, before the sun goes down, give those names to the FBI and at least have those men put under surveillance.
Mr. COHN. Mr. Welch, the FBI—
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. C
Mr. WELCH. That is a fair question.
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman, let’s not be ridiculous. Mr. Welch knows, as I have told him a dozen times, that the FBI has all of this information. The defense plants have the information. The only thing we can do is to try and publicly expose these individuals and hope that they will be gotten rid of. And you know that, Mr. Welch.
Mr. WELCH. I do not know that. . . .
Cannot the FBI put these 130 men under surveillance before sundown tomorrow?
Mr. COHN. Sir, if there is need for surveillance in the case of espionage or anything like that, I can well assure you that Mr. John Edgar Hoover and his men know a lot better than I, and I quite respectfully suggest, sir, than probably a lot of us, just who should be put under surveillance. I do not propose to tell the FBI how to run its shop. It does it very well.
Mr. WELCH. And they do it, don’t they, Mr. Cohn?
Mr. COHN. When the need arises, of course.
Mr. WELCH. And will you tell them tonight, Mr. Cohn, that here is a case where the need has arisen, so that it can be done by sundown tomorrow night?
Mr. COHN. No, sir; there is no need for my telling the FBI what to do about this or anything else. . . .
Mr. WELCH. Mr. Cohn, tell me once more: Every time you learn of a Communist or a spy anywhere, is it your policy to get them out as fast as possible?
Mr. COHN. Surely, we want them out as fast as possible, sir.
Mr. WELCH. And whene
ver you learn of one from now on, Mr. Cohn, I beg of you, will you tell somebody about them quick?
Mr. COHN. Mr. Welch, with great respect, I work for the committee here. They know how we go about handling situations of Communist infiltration and failure to act on FBI information about Communist infiltration. If they are displeased with the speed with which I and the group of men who work with me proceed, if they are displeased with the order in which we move, I am sure they will give me appropriate instructions along those lines, and I will follow any which they give me.
Mr. WELCH. May I add my small voice, sir, and say whenever you know about a subversive or a Communist spy, please hurry. Will you remember those words?
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. COHN. Mr. Welch, I can assure you, sir, as far as I am concerned, and certainly as far as the chairman of this committee and the members, and the members of the staff, are concerned, we are a small group, but we proceed as expeditiously as is humanly possible to get out Communists and traitors and to bring to light the mechanism by which they have been permitted to remain where they were for so long a period of time.
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman, in view of that question—
Senator MUNDT. Have you a point of order?
Senator MCCARTHY. Not exactly, Mr. Chairman, but in view of Mr. Welch’s request that the information be given once we know of anyone who might be performing any work for the Communist Party, I think we should tell him that he has in his law firm a young man named Fisher whom he recommended, incidentally, to do work on this committee, who has been for a number of years a member of an organization which was named, oh, years and years ago, as the legal bulwark of the Communist Party, an organization which always swings to the defense of anyone who dares to expose Communists. I certainly assume that Mr. Welch did not know of this young man at the time he recommended him as the assistant counsel for this committee, but he has such terror and such a great desire to know where anyone is located who may be serving the Communist c
ause, Mr. Welch, that I thought we should just call to your attention the fact that your Mr. Fisher, who is still in your law firm today, whom you asked to have down here looking over the secret and classified material, is a member of an organization, not named by me but named by various committees, named by the Attorney General, as I recall, and I think I quote this verbatim, as “the legal bulwark of the Communist Party.” He belonged to that for a sizable number of years, according to his own admission, and he belonged to it long after it had been exposed as the legal arm of the Communist Party.
Knowing that, Mr. Welch, I just felt that I had a duty to respond to your urgent request that before sundown, when we know of anyone serving the Communist cause, we let the agency know. We are now letting you know that your man did belong to this organization for, either 3 or 4 years, belonged to it long after he was out of law school.
I don’t think you can find anyplace, anywhere, an organization which has done more to defend Communists—I am again quoting the report—to defend Communists, to defend espionage agents, and to aid the Communist cause, than the man whom you originally wanted down here at your right hand instead of Mr. St. Clair.
I have hesitated bringing that up, but I have been rather bored with your phony requests to Mr. Cohn here that he personally get every Communist out of government before sundown. Therefore, we will give you information about the young man in your own organization.
I am not asking you at this time to explain why you tried to foist him on this committee. Whether you knew he was a member of that Communist organization or not, I don’t know. I assume you did not, Mr. Welch, because I get the impression that, while you are quite an actor, you play for a laugh, I don’t think you have any conception of the danger of the Communist Party. I don’t think you yourself would ever knowingly aid the Communist cause. I think you are unknowingly aiding it when you try to burlesque this hearing in which we are attempting to bring out the facts, however.
Mr. WELCH. Mr. Chairman.
Senator MUNDT. Mr. Welch, the Chair should say he has no recognition or no memory of Mr. Welch’s recommending either Mr. Fisher or anybody else as counsel for this committee.
I will recognize Mr. Welch.
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman, I will give you the news story on that.
Mr. WELCH. Mr. Chairman, under these circumstances I must have something approaching a personal privilege.
Senator MUNDT. You may have it, sir. It will not be taken out of your time.
Mr. WELCH. Senator McCarthy, I did not know—Senator, sometimes you say “May I have your attention?”
Senator MCCARTHY. I am listening to you. I can listen with one ear.
H. This time I want you to listen with both.
Senator MCCARTHY. Yes.
Mr. WELCH. Senator McCarthy, I think until this moment—
Senator MCCARTHY. Jim, will you get the news story to the effect that this man belonged to this Communist-front organization? Will you get the citations showing that this was the legal arm of the Communist Party, and the length of time that he belonged, and the fact that he was recommended by Mr. Welch? I think that should be in the record.
Mr. WELCH. You won’t need anything in the record when I have finished telling you this.
Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us.
When I decided to work for this committee I asked Jim St. Clair, who sits on my right, to be my first assistant. I said to Jim, “Pick somebody in the firm who works under you that you would like.” He chose Fred Fisher and they came down on an afternoon plane. That night, when he had taken a little stab at trying to see what the case was about, Fred Fisher and Jim St. Clair and I went to dinner together. I then said to these two young men, “Boys, I don’t know anything about you except I have always liked you, but if there is anything funny in the life of either one of you that would hurt anybody in this case you speak up quick.”
Fred Fisher said, “Mr. Welch, when I was in law school and for a period of months after, I belonged to the Lawyers Guild,” as you have suggested, Senator. He went on to say, “I am secretary of the Young Republicans League in Newton with the son of Massachusetts' Governor, and I have the respect and admiration of the 25 lawyers or so in Hale & Dorr.”
I said, “Fred, I just don’t think I am going to ask you to work on the case. If I do, one of these days that will come out and go over national television and it will just hurt like the dickens.”
So, Senator, I asked him to go back to Boston.
Little did I dream you could be so reckless and cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true he is still with Hale & Dorr. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale & Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear
a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty, I will do so. I like to think I am a gentleman, but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman.
Senator MUNDT. Senator McCarthy?
Senator MCCARTHY. May I say that Mr. Welch talks about this being cruel and reckless. He was just baiting; he has been baiting Mr. Cohn here for hours, requesting that Mr. Cohn, before sundown, get out of any department of Government anyone who is serving the Communist cause.
I just give this man’s record, and I want to say, Mr. Welch, that it has been labeled long before he became a member, as early as 19
Mr. WELCH. Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild, and Mr. Cohn nods his head at me. I
did you, I think, no personal injury, Mr. Cohn.
Mr. COHN. No, sir.
Mr. WELCH. I meant
to do you no personal injury, and if I did, beg your pardon.
Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You havedone enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
Senator MCCARTHY. I know this hurts you, Mr. Welch. But I may say, Mr. Chairman, on a point of personal privilege, and I would like to finish it—Mr. WELCH. Senator, I think it hurts you, too, sir.
Senator MCCARTHY. I would like to finish this.
Mr. Welch has been filibustering this hearing, he has been talking day af
about how he wants to get anyone tai
nted with communism out before
sundown. I know Mr. Cohn would rather not have me go into this. I intend to, however, Mr. Welch talks about any sense of decency. If I say anything which is not the truth, then I would like to know about it.
The foremost legal bulwark of the Communist Party, its front organizations, and controlled unions, and which, since its inception, has never failed to rally to the legal defense of the Communist Party, and individual members thereof, including known espionage agents.
Now, that is not the language of Senator McCarthy. That is the language of the Un-American Activities Committee. And I can go on with many more citations. It seems that Mr. Welch is pained so deeply he thinks it is improper for me to give the record, the Communist front record, of the man whom he wanted to foist upon this committee. But it doesn’t pain him at all—there is no pain in his chest about the unfounded charges against Mr. Frank Carr; there is no pain there about the attempt to destroy the reputation and take the jobs away from the young men who were working in my committee.
And, Mr. Welch, if I have said anything here which is untrue, then tell me. I have heard you and every one else talk so much about laying the truth upon the table that when I hear—and it is completely phony, Mr. Welch, I have listened to you for a long time—when you say “Now, before sundown, you must get these people out of Government,” I want to have it very clear, very clear that you were not so serious about that when you tried to recommend this man for this committee.
And may I say, Mr. Welch, in fairness to you, I have reason to believe that you did not know about his Communist-front record at the time you recommended him. I don’t think you would have recommended him to the committee, if you knew that.
I think it is entirely possible you learned that after you recommended him.
Senator MUNDT. The Chair would like to say again that he does not believe that Mr. Welch recommended Mr. Fisher as counsel for this committee, because he has through his office all the recommendations that were made. He does not recall any that came from Mr. Welch, and that would include Mr. Fisher.
Senator MCCARTHY. Let me ask Mr. Welch. You brought him down, did you not, to act as your assistant?
Mr. WELCH. Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this with you further. You have sat within 6 feet of me, and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have brought it out. If there is a God in heaven, it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness.
Senator MUNDT. Are there any questions?
Mr. JENKINS. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. JENKINS. Senator McCarthy, how do you regard the communistic threat to our Government as compared with other threats with which it is confronted?
Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Jenkins, the thing that I think we must remember is that this is a war which a brutalitarian force has won to a greater extent than any brutalitarian force has won a war in the history of the world before.
For example, Christianity, which has been in existence for 2,000 years, has not converted, convinced nearly as many people as this Communist brutalitarianism has enslaved in 106 years, and they are not going to stop.
I know that many of my good friends seem to feel that this is a sort of a game you can play, that you can talk about communism as though it is something 10,000 miles away.
Mr. Jenkins, in answer to your question, let me say it is right here with us now. Unless we make sure that there is no infiltration of our Government, then just as certain as you sit there, in the period of our lives you will see a red world. There is no question about that, Mr. Jenkins. . . .
Source: "The Army-McCarthy Hearings, 1954," in Robert D. Marcus and Anthony Marcus, eds., On Trail: American History Through Court Proceedings and Hearings, vol. II, (St. James, New York: Brandywine Press, 1998), 136–51.
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